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EMPTY PLACES (7x19)
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A review by Mikelangelo "MikeJer" Marinaro,
August 13, 2009 @ 12:35am PDT

Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: James A. Contner

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- Review

With only four episodes left in the entire series, I have to express my disappointment that an episode as troubled as what we have here exists. At a point when the series should be burning brightly in one final burst, what we instead have is a candle flickering wildly with a wind that keeps threatening to blow it out. "Empty Places" isn't a disaster, but it's an unfortunately problematic episode that culminates in an awkward sequence in which there's a rare display of out-of-character behavior at a critical moment. This sequence is so surprising because the episode gets so much of the character material correct earlier on, which suggests to me that perhaps several writers had their hands in this script, despite Drew Z. Greenberg getting the credit for it.

The theme of "Empty Places" is, expectedly, tied to the title. This is represented in several different ways, from the literal meaning of everyone leaving town and the high school being empty to the more emotional meaning of how Xander's injury is impacting the heart and spirit of the group to Buffy being kicked out of her house and left all alone again, linking us back with the slayer issues explored in "Conversations with Dead People" [7x07]. To the episode's credit, there's a handful of effective character scenes that are actually quite affecting. So without further ado, I'll just jump into it!

The scene with Xander in the hospital is suitably touching. Even with what happened, Xander is still admirably cracking jokes. Willow's breakdown, although expected, was moving nonetheless thanks to the wonderful Alyson Hannigan, who sadly hasn't had much to do since earlier in the season. I feel pretty awful for Xander, and have to admit that Buffy seems a little cold to him. But we soon find out that she's just concealing her pain, because "The mission is what matters," not spending buddy time with a hurt Xander. Buffy is staying focused on the ultimate goal of defeating the First. So, while a little difficult to see in the hospital scene, Buffy's muted, yet present, reaction to Xander's injury is very much in line with the themes and development of the season.

With that said, I really appreciated the scene where Dawn tries hard to pry information out of Buffy over Xander's state. Buffy just keeps her head down and Faith can see that Buffy is distressed about it and wisely hints that Dawn move onto another subject. Buffy simply softly responds "okay." In this brief moment and the subsequent scene -- Buffy looking at an old photo of her, Willow, and Xander together -- it's increasingly obvious that Buffy's working really hard to hold back her pain over what happened to Xander. It's nice to see Buffy's care for her friends reinforced amidst a season where she's had to put aside her personal feelings to lead a group of girls into battle.

The 'education' scene with Anya and Andrew, while somewhat humorous, is also kind of stupid. Anya oddly assumes the Potentials are super strong. I think she would be briefed well enough on what's going on to know that the Potentials are not super strong and that even Buffy herself didn't push hard enough on the ubervamp in "Bring on the Night" [7x10] to actually dust it. Amanda then says that apparently "nothing" will help in fighting Caleb. What!? I know they all got beat down pretty hard in "Dirty Girls" [7x18], but come on, they have in no way tried everything! Their attack strategy against Caleb was essentially Buffy's usual 'brute force' method, and that really didn't work out very well. There are other strategies to try. These comments and reactions don't feel realistic to me and sadly show cracks of sloppy writing on the wall.

At the school, Buffy has another encounter with Caleb. I find myself a little confused as to the point of this scene. We know Caleb's exceedingly strong, and we already know he's a misogynistic crazy person who uses religion only as his costume, completely ignoring its values. So we gain exactly what by seeing him knock Buffy unconcious again? Caleb is already becoming a one-note villain, and he sadly stays that way.

Poor Nathan Fillion gets stuck with an uninteresting character, although I give him props for playing Caleb creepy to the max. In "Dirty Girls" [7x18] he was new enough to be intruiging, but now we've already seen that there's nothing more to him, and that's a real shame. This is furthered by the scene where he talks to the First in what's an annoying case of the evil villains spouting off their plans to the viewers. Ugh! Scenes like this make me dearly miss the colorful villains of times past, from Angelus to the Mayor to Glory to even Warren. Warren was a misogynist yet was also a more complex character with some real issues and development underlying his madness.

Buffy and Giles have a rare quiet moment to catch up with each other when she returns from the school. Although Buffy has due cause to be a little peeved at Giles' actions a couple episodes ago and to be cautious surrounding his decisions regarding Spike, her comment about Spike being the only one watching her back is truly uncalled for. I know she's tired, I know she's frustrated, but to slap all her allies in the face with a comment like that isn't fair. Note that I'm not saying she was out of character, but rather just that she behaved poorly. It's also intruiging to note how Buffy and Giles' roles are somewhat reversed at the end of the scene, with Giles taking the position that the girls needed to let loose a little bit and Buffy being the one who thinks it's unacceptable in a time of crisis. Oh the delicious irony.

The scene at the Bronze, with many of the girls getting drunk and then fighting some hellmouth-infused cops, is a little excessive (pun most definitely intended). I understand blowing off a little steam, but it seems to me the only reason why this scene existed was because the plot gods wanted it to happen, thereby giving Buffy a valid excuse to be peeved at the girls (and Faith) thereby setting up the troubled scene at the end of the episode. The plotting here was far too transparent to even have a remote chance at succeeding.

One good thing to come of that scene, though, is the resulting discussion between Buffy and Faith. Buffy is overly aggressive and not remotely in the mood to listen to what actually happened, but Faith is also unfair trying to use what happened at the vinyard -- a plan Faith supported -- as an argument against Buffy. Buffy smacks Faith down, and in a new display of behavior from Faith (on BtVS that is), we see her not retaliate. This not only shows the growth of Faith as an individual, but also the self-awareness that she stepped over the line with her comment and kind of deserved it. As Faith tells Wood later, she didn't hit back because "other things matter more." This is a wonderful continuation of Faith's multi-series arc.

Ah, and then there's the revolt scene. Buffy explains a plan to the entire group which requires a return to the vinyard. First of all, Buffy's logic makes sense to me but she's got absolutely no proof -- something Faith and Giles correctly point out. It's all conjecture, and you can't go running back into Caleb's lair with just conjecture. So the extremely unenthusiastic response from everyone is completely justified. Buffy loses further ground with defensiveness around this very risky plan and then throwing the Spike card out there once again. Besides Giles and Wood, I don't understand why Buffy thinks anyone is trying to work behind her back or undermine her authority. I'm quite baffled by why she continues to think that only Spike has her back in this episode. With all this said, the group -- especially Giles -- did throw this leadership role onto Buffy, telling her 'it's all up to you now' back in "Never Leave Me" [7x09]. It's not entirely fair to throw this burden of leadership onto her only to swipe it away from under her feet when things get rough.

The major thing that bugs me about this scene, though, is how Willow and Xander in particular are so quick to claim that Buffy's judgement is impaired without even trying to quickly pull Buffy aside, maybe outside the house, and have a more personal chit-chat about what's going on. It felt very unnatural to me to have all of these final decisions and judgements made so abruptly (on all sides) without anyone even attempting to suggest taking a step back and really talk it out. Well, anyone besides Faith. Good on her for suggesting a little breather and not at all intending to take over Buffy's leadership role. I actually found it to be fairly touching when Buffy, tearfully, hands the reins over to Faith without the slightest hint of anger or jealousy -- just sadness and concern over what all her previous work might end up leading to.

Anya even throws herself into the mix, having a little fit about Buffy not necessarily deserving her leadership title. This just shows how little she understands the nature of the Slayer and all it entails. What she says to Buffy has got to be painful for Buffy to hear because it's so, so untrue. Buffy's in no way 'lucky' being chosen to be the Slayer, which is something she's verbalized on countless occasions. Being the Slayer has a few neat benefits and a whole lot of huge drawbacks!

It sits with me just fine that the Potentials would revolt against Buffy and even choose Faith over her, but for Willow and Xander (and to a lesser extent Dawn) to do it is out-of-character and a little absurd. Trusting Faith to lead over Buffy!? The same Faith who almost killed Xander with her bare hands and put a knife to Willow's throat in S3? I know Faith's changed, but that change has occurred on Angel and hasn't been personally witnessed by anyone on this side of the network pond. Sure Willow saw Faith help Angel a bit, but that's hardly a reason to so quickly call Buffy's judgement impaired and put her stock in Faith. Wow. I'm not used to seeing such blatantly poor characterization on this show, but here it is! If you're wondering why the score is as low as it is, thank this scene. Thankfully the character problems are largely isolated to this episode.

To sum all this up, I suppose the end result is that "Empty Places" simply fails to come together. Between the barebone plot, schizophrenic character writing, and overall sloppy feel, this is quite the troubled episode -- more so due to its proximity to the final episode of the series. Thankfully it's not all bad though, and a number of quality character scenes and discussions keep the episode relevant beyond the basic plot points. It's a mixed bag, but one that manages to just have enough merit for it to remain afloat.



- Minor Pros/Cons (+/-)
Pros:
+  
Buffy's reaction when Clem says that he thinks no one can stop what's happening. It's all in SMG's eyes. Insta-chuckle for me.
+  
The concept of the Hellmouth's energy causing the cops to go overboard with their sense of "justice."
+  
Andrew's drawings of Anya's 'education' of the potentials. He even writes down 'breakup sex' on the board. Haha.
+  
Andrew's burning anger at Faith for stealing his hot pocket.
+  
Andrew and Spike sharing their love of the blooming onion. Perfect.
+  
Faith and Wood hitting it off.
+  
Xander's return to the Summers' home with the warm welcome.
  
Cons:
-  
How would the cops know Faith has returned to Sunnydale? We know they're incompetent and Faith hasn't exactly been strutting around town making a ruckus. What gives?
-  
Despite the throwaway comment, I was still a little perplexed seeing so many people dancing around at a club when pretty much everyone is flocking town due to, one would assume, rampant murder and shadowy people roaming the streets.
-  
Anyone want to slap Rona for her stupid comment after Buffy gets kicked out? It's not out of character for her, but it's so downright cruel that I have to list it here.


- Quotes
CLEM:  
(to Buffy) It's getting bad here. Really bad. Hellmouth acting up again, people feeling it, getting crazier. You can't swing a cat without hitting some kind of demonic activity. Not that I swing cats, or eat. Nope. Heh. Cuttin' way back -- cholesterol. Morals. I mean, morals.

WILLOW:  
So, I guess you're stuck with me then, huh? Let's order some cherry-flavored off-brand gelatin, and then I think we'll be up for a rousing game of-
XANDER:  
I might need a parrot.
WILLOW:  
Huh?
XANDER:  
Well, to go with the eye patch, to really complete the look. I think I still have that costume from Halloween.
WILLOW:  
Yeah, and don't underestimate the impact of a peg leg. Maybe the hospital can hook you up with a nice one. Maybe they have a two body parts for the price of one kind of deal.

ANYA:  
Okay... I know you're all upset... and I, myself, would much rather be sitting at the bedside of my one-eyed ex-fiance than killing time here with you people in this over-crowded and might I add increasingly ripe-smelling basement. And I would be, too, if not for a certain awkward discussion he and I recently had right over there on that cot immediately following some exciting and unexpected breakup sex. But...I need to give him some space... so I'm doing what I can do, contributing any way I can... and so will all of you. You still need to know this information. We can't stop just because something else is trying to kill you too.

AMANDA:  
Do you think there are gonna be questions about her sex life on the test? 'Cause I really hope I don't have to study all that.
FAITH:  
Yeah. Whenever she starts talking about getting all sweaty with Xander like that I just remind her I had him first. Shuts her right the hell up.

ANDREW:  
Um, Mr. Giles, Faith stole the last meatball-and-mozzarella-flavored hot pocket out of the freezer even though I had called dibs on it. ... Yup. See, the post-it's still here
GILES:  
Shut up. Pay attention.

GILES:  
I sent Spike to look into it.
BUFFY:  
Spike? Is this a mission from which you intend Spike to return alive?
GILES:  
Yes. I sent Andrew with him.
BUFFY:  
Again I ask the question.

ANDREW:  
You sure you don't wanna stop and pick up some burgers or something, you know, road trip food?
SPIKE:  
It's not a road trip. It's a covert operation.
ANDREW:  
Right. Right. Gotcha. I bet even covert operatives eat curly fries. They're really good.
SPIKE:  
Not as good as those onion blossom things.
ANDREW:  
Ooh, I love those.
SPIKE:  
Yeah, me, too.
ANDREW:  
It's an onion... and it's a flower. I don't understand how such a thing is possible.
SPIKE:  
See, the genius of it is you soak it in ice water for an hour so it holds its shape. Then you deep-fry it root-side up for about 5 minutes.
ANDREW:  
Masterful.
SPIKE:  
Yeah... tell anyone we had this conversation, I'll bite you.


- Score
64/100 C-
Very flawed. Either the main plot is completely insulting or there's some out-of-characterness going on. Avoids falling into uselessness by way of some good character development and/or insight.


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- Comments (67)

1.buffyholicAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
Great review and I totally agree with you. Can I also add that I find this episode a bit slow, too? But my main problem is the final scene, it makes me scream and shout.
Maybe I´m a bit bias but I´m with Buffy all the way. I mean, yeah she makes big mistakes but hey, she didn´t ask for this huge responsability and she is always being blamed for everything. It´s totally unfair to her. And I can´t shake the feeling that this is an ambush. I mean, what is Wood doing here? And Anya is being unfair and ungrateful.

One thing that you forgot to mention, mike was how Buffy was being a little out of line with Faith saying to the girls that she was a murderer while Faith was being totally cool with her.

Keep it up!

2.DarthMarionAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
Excellent review!

I would have be a little harsher on this episode, the revolt scene always make me cringe as hell!!!

How on earth can they believe kikcing out Buffy (out of HER house) will be a good thing?
Like you said, there is bad characterisation all around, and it also seems like everybody lost the slightest common sense. How can anyone think that separating themselves to the Slayer in an apocalypse would be good, for them and for her. At the moment, they aren't strong enough to win the fight, and they let go Buffy? Oh yeah, get the group weaker is surely gonna help, and if there is someone that always find a way to win, isn't that Buffy?
I really don't understand what the scoobies thought at the time. And about the Potentials, well, I don't expect any level of faith in Buffy from them, but if they can't stand her, they just have to go away! Who cares, them all seem suicidals anyway!

Ambush, you pointed out the perfect word.

However, I disagree a little about Xander in this scene. I was strengely satisfied with his characterisation. He's so quiet and all, he did'nt attack like everyone els. He did'nt support Buffy as well, but...the guy is so shocked, it's really understandable.
What save the ep were Faith, the scoobie-sad moments around Xander, and Buffy's lack of bitterness regarding Faith. Those were good things, but not enough to make the ep a good one, just a bad but not lame one.

3.UrsusAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
Great review. I think you pretty much nailed it.

I can understand what the writers were *trying* to do, but the way they realized it was sloppy. The last 3rd of Season 7 is one big mess of a plot, punctuated only by some nice moments of character and dialogue.

4.jarppuAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
The last 3rd is a mess? More like the last TWO 3rds are a mess. The show is pretty much crap after CWDP with the exceptions of Storyteller and Chosen. I've mostly agreed with Mikejer's reviews with season 1-6 but for season 7 he gives too much credit for the show. But I guess it's good that at least someone enjoyed the season. Most people (like me, obviously) don't like the show after CWDP.

5.UrsusAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
Jarppu: I agree the season never lived up to the potential shown in CWDP, which is the biggest damn shame ever. However, I still found it fairly entertaining right up to the point they introduced Caleb, the cardboard cut-out villain.

6.LeeluAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
I don't think the "revolt" is quite as out-of-character as everyone else does, it seems. Buffy really hasn't done a good job at all so far. The Potentials hate her, and she just got done leading them into a terrible loss. Everyone is terrified for their lives, and their faith in Buffy has been slowly waning the whole season. After losing a Potential or two in that last battle and Xander getting seriously, irreparably hurt, of course they are going lose whatever little bit of faith they had left.

Before Faith arrived, they had no choice but to accept Buffy as the leader--she was the only Slayer available. But with Faith--a newer, more sane, etc., Faith--they see another choice, especially after Buffy's constant bungling.

I'm not trying to Buffy-bash here. I feel for the girl this whole season, I do. But you have to admit that she goes about her leadership role completely wrong. She just ends up driving everyone away.

I think the problem with the scene is that it's not necessarily out-of-character at this point, but it IS poorly executed.

7.Woohoo1729Aug 13, 2009 (Thu)
I'm glad you found the revolt scene poorly executed, mikejer. I find more of Season 7 unwatchable in this similar fashion than you have expressed, but this revolt scene really makes the list and we both agree! I truly enjoy your reviews, and I am eagerly awaiting the last few episodes.

8.JasonAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
Hey, great review as usual! I'm usually onboard with your opinions when it comes to these Buffy episodes even if I don't agree with every point, but I'm gonna have to say that I think you graded this one a bit too harshly. I know you're a big fan of characterization and I agree that it's essential in making Buffy the amazing show it is, but sometimes people DO act out of character...and usually they do that when the situation demand them to. More on this later, but first I'd like to point out that Anya's question regarding the strength of the potentials always smelled a little funny to me, but I chalked it up to the writers (or maybe the execs) informing new viewerer and/or former loyalists that these potentials are powerless, as we gear up for the final episodes. The potentials remarks about trying EVERYTHING on Caleb never rang untrue to me though. Teenagers always speak only in absolutes (hypocrisy intended). So I get it. Makes sense to me, but the Caleb scene was totally whack!

Now on to that mutiny scene... I totally disagree with you here. Here's why.... I really feel that the stakes are higher than they've ever been before. Sunnydale is a ghost town and Buffy has been a totally closed off, ice cold bitch to everyone. She is doing this because she knows she's going to watch many people she loves die (As you noted, Xander should be dead during this scene). She's closing herself off in ways we've never seen before. I feel everyone rejecting her plan outright, in the manner in which it happened, was right in step with how a group of people might respond to this situation. Not WIllow, Not Xander, Not Dawnie, but a group of diverse people. Now it's common to see people as fixed personalities--their behaviors are linked to this and thus predictable but time and time again research proves that people are dominantly social creatures, in that we operate based on situations and not some notion of personality, in most situations. We feel compelled to cheer when other do, or stand in appreciation when we see others doing it first, we are more inclined to laugh at jokes on the television if we aren't alone-- basically situational forces beat out individual forces more often than not. This is an uncomfortable truth and it makes people, well, uncomfortable, but what I'm getting at is that Buffy has been making no friends, no alliances, and has done nothing but damage the relationships with the people who trust her the most. Her sister doesn't even think Buffy knows she's alive. She's rejected the advice and wisdom of her watcher. She continually draws a divide between her-the superior, and everyone else-the minions. Then she makes a call and many people die, Xander loses an eye--and still she reads cold. Not only that, she demands that they all risk their lives for the same EXACT plan. No questions or explanations...just orders. Again, she knows people will die....and she expects them to lay down their lives. I see their rebellion as a way of putting Buffy in check, reclaiming some of their own power that they've relinquished to elect buffy the commander and chief of their war. For the potentials it's sweet victory, but for the others it's a way of letting Buffy know that one of the risks of being the detached hardened leader is that you might become a little to careless with the lives of the people you've chosen to dehumanize. Does this mean they are throwing their support behind Faith, heck no! It means they have muscle, but what they need is better planning! I think they group (or Willow, Giles, Xander, and Dawn to be specific because I believe others had different motives) acted the same way most anyone would act in that situation....with caution, fear, and eventually rebellion.

Buffy: "Hey, remember that plan that got people killed. Let's do it again...c'mon Xander maybe you can actually die this time?" "

Um, no.....

9.JasonAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
OH, and don't the cops get a fax about faith at the beginning of the episode....

10.GuidoAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
I'd forgotten about the scene with the zealot cops. I suppose the Hellmouth-influenced behavior of Sunnydale's finest could have been intended to set us up for the wacky game of Jumping to Conclusions, played at Buffy's expense, but the later just came across as a rush to judgement for weak reasons, and to no lasting effect other than to disappoint.

Kicking Buffy out indeed felt like a plugged-in plot contrivance to heighten the drama over the challenges of leadership. Although I like Season 7, overall, this episode highlights what I believe is the season's major flaw: too many ideas and characters introduced too late in the story to be fully developed. Besides the new void in Xander's head, this episode is one of the emptiest places in the season.

11.Dave CAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
This is, by far, my least favorite episode of BtVS. Now, I wouldn't necessarily say that it's objectively worse than "Where the Wild Things Are" or "I Robot, You Jane," but those episodes are, overall, inconsequential to the arc of the show. But like "Wrecked," this episode is extremely important to the overall arc, and therefore it's massive failures are far less forgivable.

I don't for a minute buy that, even with all that happened previously, Xander and Willow would just up and dump Buffy for Faith or that Dawn would actually kick Buffy out of her own house (perhaps if the distrust for Buffy that the First was trying to instill in Dawn in CwDP had been further explored this could have been more believable). Consequently, I can't feel anything but loathing for this episode. The only redeeming feature of the "revolt" is that it leads directly into the (mostly) sublime episode "Touched." I can't wait for that review. :)

12.ShannonAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
@jarppu - I've come across many of your comments while reading through Mike's reviews, and they tend to be both uniformly negative and prone to sweeping declarations about the the show and the people who watch it, as well as being often rude to others or derisive of comments others have made. E.g. "the show is pretty much crap after CWDP" "Most people don't like the show after CWDP", and in another comment thread from S5 that particularly struck me, "I'm not fan of the 'Spike, the cool vampire' that the show transformed into starting from this season". Some questions for you... So in one place you say you don't like the show after CWDP, and in another you say you don't like the show from S5 onwards. Which is it? Do you even like this show? Do you have anything positive or insightful to add to the discussion or do you prefer to just dismiss things as "crap" and insult other posters here? And finally, are you simply a victim of the Great Hyperbole Enabler (a.k.a. The Internet)?

I for one really liked Season 7, even after the holy grail of Buffy episodes, CWDP. Yes, it had some serious problems, but so did the whole first 2/3 of S2, and most of S4, and a lot of S6. Overall though, the issues from any of those seasons don't diminish my enjoyment of the show as a whole, or overshadow the many brilliant things I love about Buffy, and the same applies to S7. This episode was definitely one of the weak points of the season (along with the Killer In Me - yech), but I thought the last stretch of episodes from Get It Done to Chosen was otherwise pretty cool.

13.MissKittyFantasticoAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
Great review!


I always want to smack Dawn (who became so much more fun in this season!) when she says "It's my house too." Every time I hear that I think, "Oh, so you started a full-time job at the doublemeat palace/counseling on top of your regular duties in order to pay the bills? So you deal with all the insurance and repairs? You make the telephone calls and fill out the tax forms?" Ungrateful cow! >.>

I agree that it's completely in character for everyone to be mad at Buffy--but as Mike and other people have pointed out, there are reasonable ways to deal with issues, and the last scene in Empty Places is not one of them. Kicking Buffy out of her own house in the middle of an impending apocalypse? If any of my friends did that to me, I'd have difficulty speaking to them ever again. I prefer to imagine the end of Empty Places didn't happen; instead, everyone had a reasonable intervention with Buffy, and she left for a night to cool off (thus laying the ground for Touched, an episode I enjoy). :)

14.MissKittyFantasticoAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
I also agree with DarthMarion about Xander in this episode. He could be such a jerk earlier on in the series, and he's matured so much over time to become a likable and loyal friend. I would have reacted the same way as he did in Empty Places (again, without the let's-kick-the-slayer-out part).

15.MarshalAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
How did Joss ever let this crap into slip under the radar and into the script? That sickening thud is the sound of the ball being dropped. You hit the nail on the head all the way, though I totally love Nathan as Caleb.

16.DarthMarionAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
How about this thing about the problems between Joss and the crew? I'm so not sure about that, but did'nt Joss take this storyline from this experience?
Maybe this is why this storyline seems a little bit forced and contrived, because Joss wanted the story to be in this place, but the wind blowed in another direction, and the writers in general did'nt manage to pull those two things together. And we get this feeling that the characters were sacrified in order to take the story there.

@Jason, it's interesting what you say about group dynamics. However as MissKittyfantastico said there were potential reasonnable results for such a group dynamic.
And I will argue that the core scoobies have they own group dynamic, since years (and e pretty close group dynamic to other...see the difficulty for Tara to be included in the decision process and all) and I don't think it's in character for the scoobies to get themselves in what I'm gonna call th Potentials group dynamic rather than let work their scoobies group dynamic to handle the problem with Buffy in a more....I don't know if I can explain it in english...intimate way? private way?

17.LeeluAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
Oh, about something not terribly important--I don't get Spike liking onion flowers. They weren't around when he was human (not that I know of, anyway), and he can eat them now, but he can't really taste them...so how can he go on about how much he likes them in this episode? It doesn't really make sense.

I can understand the booze and cigarettes he consumes, because that's more about their effect rather than their taste. Though I think it takes more to affect vamps, doesn't it? I don't think they've ever been quite clear on that matter. And the Wheatabix is added to his blood for texture rather than taste.

The writers have specifically said before that vampires can eat human food, but they just can't really taste it. Granted this was mostly pointed out in Angel, but still...both shows exist in the same universe, so the rules should apply in both.

18.DarthMarionAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
Isn't that adresses in IWRY? With ice cream?
I just understand from that that if Spike were human, he probably would like onionflowers even more. Or not.
IMO, it's just that vampire sense of taste is different, after all they like blood, ew. And maybe their sense of taste is a little less intense than human's, like...a little bit dead.

19.IanAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
I just watched this episode last night and I do wonder about Buffy's plan. She might feel she is right in her hunch that there is a reason to go back, but the previous attempt was disastrous. To go back again there had to be some different plan of attack, some new basis for believing in a more successful outcome than before. Without some clear indication that the fight might turn out differently the second time around, nobody could logically follow Buffy back into the hornets nest. Nothing previously had indicated any chance of success on a repeat attempt. And if nobody could logically follow Buffy in that plan, either Buffy had to stop and listen to the objections, or Buffy couldn't continue as leader.

If one accepts that the problem was due to a stubbornness and obstinacy in Buffy's character, an inability to recognize that she might be making a mistake, then the outcome was in many ways unavoidable rather than a weakness in the writing.

20.GuidoAug 13, 2009 (Thu)
I think Buffy's role in this is undeniable, but as others have said, there were better ways to handle the disagreement. A mutinous brawl or sit-down strike would have been more believable than the oddly draconian eviction.

21.TaraAug 14, 2009 (Fri)
The final scene in this episode drives me crazy as it reeks of plot contrivence. Even if I could believe the Scoobies would choose Faith over Buffy, kicking her out of her own house is simply too much. Even Dawn, who is family, doesn't have that right. Not only is it completely out of order, Buffy is still physically their strongest fighter and they are fatally weakening their force by driving her out. It just seems a further stretch of implausability to drive Buffy into that 'poor me' place.

Also, I cannot for the life of me believe that Xander (especially in light of his beautiful speech in Dirty Girls, which here is promptly ignored), Willow or Dawn would genuinely support Faith over Buffy. They have always remained loyal to Buffy, even when things were seriously going to shit in Spiral. In that episode, Buffy flat-out told them she didn't have a plan and wasn't strong enough to beat Glory and they were still behind her, even when it looked as though Giles might die. They've been through even more with Buffy since then, so to completely disregard all that history and former loyalty? Sorry, but I don't buy it. That's just poor writing.

Also, it's Faith for God's sake! Faith, who Willow completely hates and who tried to kill Xander. The Faith who Giles characterised as 'unstable'. The Scoobies saw first-hand the havoc she wreaked in Season 3, and okay, she's changed, but I cannot buy into the idea that they would trust her so quickly. Giles was ready to kill Spike for being a liability, but he's a-okay with placing the lives of the Potentials in Faith's hands. But then agan, Giles has been a pretty cold bastard throughout this Season so maybe it's not too much of a surprise.

The thing I hate most about this scene (aside from the sad sacrifice of character to plot) is that I felt it knocked an irrevocable dent in the Scooby gang. Watching the next few episodes left me with a bitter taste in my mouth, because things never felt right between them afterwards. Buffy seems okay to get things back to normal, but if the friends of seven years had undermined me (and kicked me out of my own house!!) my trust in them would be seriously shaken.

As for the Potentials, it doesn't surprise me one jot that they would happily ditch Buffy. Bunch of ingrates.

22.spateswifeAug 14, 2009 (Fri)
Can I just say how very much I do NOT like Rona? I just feel like she is whiney...even whinier than Dawn was in the beginning. I can't hardly stand her. And I agree Mike, her comment made me want to punch her in her face...lol.

23.DarthMarionAug 14, 2009 (Fri)
@ Ian, Buffy seems quite open to strategy and tactics discussion in this scene. She's not really saying "let's do like yesterday!" she says they must go to the vinyard again, and, ok, that's not a cheering thought, but as she's convinced that's what must be done...and she says they must make a better plan and she's open to discussion on strategic topic, but not on the decision to return....which is harsh enough but not as much as you said I think.
That's also why it so feels like an ambush, it's like, whatever she can say, they already decided to kick her out, no matter what, in a way I find it a very puerile behavior, excpected from the Potentials, but not from the scoobies.

@ Tara, I'm like you, if my friends have done such a betrayal on(?) me, I would've be a lot more bitter than Buffy. However I always found that girl have an really really huge ability to forgive, she's one of the most forgiving person I've ever seen, in TV like in real life.

24.buffyholicAug 14, 2009 (Fri)
@Shannon, I agree. The negative aspects of this and the other seasons do not diminish my enjoyment at all. I still love it to death and well, nothing is perfect.

About Buffy being kicked out, there is one thing that bugs me afterwards. It just seems no one apologised to Buffy on their behaviour, like a "Sorry we kicked you out, it was a mistake". I love the talks she has with Faith and Xander, but all we got from the Potentials was Amanda saying that they were being punished and I would like to see an apology, at least.
Am I wrong?

25.EmilyAug 14, 2009 (Fri)
No, buffyholic, you're totally right. I could accept this scene if I stretched my imagination- A LOT- but to never receive an apology? I can't accept that. I always believed that Buffy got the brunt of everything, and the Scoobies always expected her to take even more. Especially Xander and Dawn.

How I deal with this scene usually depends on my mood. Sometimes, I stretch my imagination and my logic and tell myself that it *somewhat* makes sense. And sometimes, I just ignore it. Like it never happened.

Great review, Mike!

26.wilpyAug 14, 2009 (Fri)
I agree with all those in opposition against the final scene of this episode (and frankly, I'm surprised that anybody would be 'for' it).

I didn't have a problem with the mutiny itself. Harsh words were said, some out of character (Wood, Anya, Dawn). I understand why Willow and Xander would choose not to follow her on her new, heady plan. They had followed her for a long time, but permanant injury at the hands of her carelessness was enough to sway the scales out of her favour. She did herself no good by isolating herself from the group and saying they didn't have her back.

Has anyone read the IGN interview with Joss, around June 2003 just after the show finished? He talks about his time working on 'Roseanne', and shares a life philosophy of his that in times of crisis, humans either connect or isolate. He goes into detail about how Roseanne isolated herself from the writers on her staff, and how she threatened to fire them all if they spread rumours about her to the press. He reflected how at that moment she chose to threaten her staff, she could've easily gone the other way and said "come on team, we can beat em!" She could've connected with them and not made their lives a living hell. I think this experience of Joss's heavily influenced this episode in particular. Buffy chose to say Spike was the only one who had her back, and as such, she got her ass kicked out of her own house for it. Interesting.


What I really HATE about the final scene of EP is the Scoobies' decision to make Faith their leader. Right, just after Anya made a big speech about how Buffy has no right to be the leader because she's the slayer, they chose Faith to be their next leader because she's shown so much sublime leadership technique in the past?? It's so stupid. It would've been much more interesting if the Scoobies had decided to work as a democracy. We don't need to see Faith *be* a leader to know she'd be an awful leader.

27.wilpyAug 14, 2009 (Fri)
Incidentally, Mike, great review. Probably would have given it a lower grade myself. Most of it utterly failed to interest me. Out of every episode of the Buffyverse, I think this is the definitive 'padding' episode. Almost nothing actually *happens* until the final scene. We get the scene at the school, we get the scene at the Bronze, but as you noted in your review, neither scene serves much or any purpose. And then around those scenes, we get useless exposition by Spike/Andrew or Anya in the basement, and lots of sitting around. It's a wasted hour when we could've gotten something in place of it, like a Xander/Anya episode earlier on in the season. :(

28.wytchcroftAug 14, 2009 (Fri)
Well, this is just a blight.
Episodes like this give S7 its somewhat unjustified reputation.
Nothing works at ALL, even the oh so artficial Faith fight scene is super lame.
I hear what Jason is saying but the characters are out of character through the WHOLE episode, not just at times, and their actions while OCC are profound and significant and, oh, pointless and dreadful. And Caleb gets a poor showing here compared to the other episodes.

Feels like an ungodly piece of filler and coming after two great episodes that's a kick in the nuts.

Moving swiftly on...

29.DarthMarionAug 14, 2009 (Fri)
And it was so not the time to waste an episode...Dammit!


30.buffyholicAug 15, 2009 (Sat)
But I think that had nothing to do with leadership or even Faith, they just wanted a change. Don´t forget in the next episode, Faith is being treated as the enemy already by the Potentials. Being a general or pleasing everyone is hard. Faith was viewed as someone cool, someone anti-Buffy and anti-rules but as soon as she steps in, Faith is immediately viewed differently and already having hostile comments by the Potentials. So, what the hell do they want? I´m thinking they wanted to rule themselves.

31.llinnaeAug 15, 2009 (Sat)
'He(Joss)talks about his time working on 'Roseanne', and shares a life philosophy of his that in times of crisis, humans either connect or isolate'

I think this is one of Joss's philosophies that appears time and time again during the series and on Angel. In this episode, I think we can take it even further and say that in times of crisis people not only sociologically behave this way (especially when they're scared shitless) but also in the context of this show, may be prone to the Hellmouth's mystical energy that would rile them up and cause 'either/or' reasoning. The dark energy from the Hellmouth has always been spoken of when an apocolypse approaches and since the First Evil is here this time it seems likely that its power would be all the more intense. To me it makes perfect sense that this magic would contribute to, not only Buffy's rash decisions but all of the group's, however that definitely does not excuse the episode from all of its many problems.

I think everyone's mentioned pretty much what I dislike about this episode but just one thing to add about Anya's comment in the last scene (about Slayers being 'lucky'). I dont think she meant that Slayers are lucky because of their job, super strength, the lives they lead etc. I think she was referring more to the process of a slayer being chosen. She was making the point that (although Buffy's experiences *after* becoming Slayer may make her 'superior') the fact that she was chosen to be slayer doesn't mean anything about her personality, it was purely by chance or 'luck'. I think by 'lucky' she meant 'you were chosen at random not because you're innately (before becoming Slayer) more powerful or intelligent'. Personally I found this completely in character for Anya and thought it was an interesting (albeit brutally honest) point to bring up. Maybe its just me, but I can't think of anytime on the show when the process of being chosen as slayer is completely explained so Ive often wondered: Was Buffy
chosen at random, by magic, or consciously by the Powers That Be because her pre-Slayer personality was well-suited to the job? I find it hard to believe that her pre- Slayer attitude and experiences qualified her as someone up to the job. It seems much more likely that someone with Faith's background (anger, rejection, lonliness) would make a much better choice and far more powerful weapon if only becuase of the fact that anger and lonliness are more likely to drive someone towards violence and ruthlessness. If the Powers somehow saw potential in Buffy and other slayers, despite their pre-slayer personalities, is the show trying to say something about the whole Nature vs. Nurture question? Id love to hear your takes on how slayers are chosen (and sorry in advance if Ive missed something really obvious on the show that explains this).

BTW, Mike, thanks for another review! I dont know what I'll do when you're done reviewing the whole show :(

32.mikejerAug 16, 2009 (Sun)
@llinnae: I have a few surprises left before I close up shop. :)

33.JasonAug 16, 2009 (Sun)
Call it crap, but Buffy is a show that is constantly changing. It's subversive... Just because characters do the right thing time and time again, doesn't mean they always will....Joss doesn't make anthologies. The last scene and this last season was about: What do people do when they have to go to war? And sometimes, even the greatest of people...turn on their lead when they are afraid. Period...i think exploring those themes are more important than canonizing these characters....that's just me. Personally, I'm surprised they didn't explore these ideas earlier. Buffy is a great leader, but sometimes that isn't enough and the people you count on might not be as strong as you'd like them to be. That appears to be a quiet theme this season....the consequence of exploring the concept of strength is that you discover weaknesses..no?

34.DarthMarionAug 16, 2009 (Sun)
Maybe Mikejer will adress this chosen topic...in Chosen? ^^

Personnally, I really think there was a potential in Buffy and in the other chosen girls, this discussion always reminds me of the few flashbacks we have about Buffy, she always appear like someone who wants to protect others (like in the Weight of the World - but there's also the sister factor...)
And I think that Anya really meant lucky, she clearly said about the random selection "That does'nt make you better than us, that makes you luckier than us"....

oh and I did'nt think of the effect of the Hellmouth! well thaht makes me feel better, but it's like...an easy trick or something...

35.mikejerAug 16, 2009 (Sun)
@Jason: A few thoughts...
- QUOTE -
i think exploring those themes are more important than canonizing these characters....that's just me.
Yep, that's just you. I prefer Buffy to Angel (and shows like Battlestar Galactica) precisely because it doesn't sacrifice its characters to make grand thematic statements. The themes and the story should naturally evolve out of the development of the character. But that's just me. ;)
- QUOTE -
The last scene and this last season was about: What do people do when they have to go to war? And sometimes, even the greatest of people...turn on their lead when they are afraid.
You're right here, this is a theme explored this season, but my primary issues with the mutiny scene are that (1) we had people doing things they wouldn't do at that moment in time, based on what came before, and (2) very, very little build-up or development up to that moment. More importantly, the fact they elected Faith over Buffy is a complete slap in the face to viewers who have loved the series for its great consistent character development. I could buy the theme here if there had been several more episodes involving Buffy making critical mistakes and Faith wasn't elected in Buffy's place. But the turn around was all but one episode!

After Xander's beautiful speech in the previous episode, I just couldn't stomach the quick turn-around. What does that say about the strength of their friendship? Willow was trying to incinerate the planet in the previous season, yet Xander was still there to offer his hand out in help.

Buffy as a series is better than this scene. It always laid the proper groundwork and foundation for major shifts in character behavior. That's precisely why this scene sticks out like a snowstorm on a hot sunny day.

36.JasonAug 16, 2009 (Sun)
Didn't the group lose like three young innocent girls and the eye of a very valued "seeing" person before the group rebelled against their leaders (MAJOR life changing (ending!) things separate the speech in Dirty Girls and the decision made in Empty Place) rash decision to 'drop' her friends into 'the hornets nest'. Again, I stress they weren't backing Faith over Buffy, they were making a collective statement against Buffy's orders in a symbolic way.

37.IanAug 16, 2009 (Sun)
One thing you can observe in real life is that groups sometimes make dumb, irrational decisions; decisions that the individuals comprising the group would never make on their own. Everyone in a group wants to be part of the team and therefore no individual speaks out when an obviously wrong choice is being made for fear of being seen as an outsider.

Sometimes for fiction to be true to life it has to be really true to life and not have its characters always behave in the logical and expected manner in every situation. Real people don't always behave that way, so why should fictional people?

In this case Buffy is the only one with the strength of character not to submit to the group mind. She says "I can't stay here and watch...", to which the response is "Then you can't stay here". Therefore Buffy herself sets the stage for her departure. She was not thrown out, but she could not stay under the circumstances prevailing. There was an indication of character growth there too. Sometimes you have to lead gently not forcefully, and allow people freedom to make wrong decisions and learn from them.

38.buffyholicAug 17, 2009 (Mon)
@Jason:One of the things I really like about this season is how they all seem to distrust one another, even close friends like these. Throughout the whole season, there´s been distrust not only with the Potentials regarding Buffy but also the gang and Dawn. This has not been an easy season.

@mikejer: I don´t feel the scene is OOC, imo. It makes me mad as hell, but I don´t think it´s OOC. Sure, Faith did awful things to the gang but Buffy is putting them into a difficult position. She says that she is the only slayer available, the only one with power but there´s Faith, someone who did despicable things and tried to kill them, but she is someone who is a slayer and someone who they think will be different than Buffy. I love Buffy to death and I mostly agree with her, but she gets me so mad when she says that she is the only one strong enough, so we should follow her.
btw, I am so glad you put on that comment by Rona. I really hate her.

39.DarthMarionAug 17, 2009 (Mon)
Except that the strenght Buffy refers to is'nt the physical one that the Slayer has, it's the mental one, the sense of mission, the confidence in the rightuousness of what she does(is that even a word?) etc... that drives the Slayer. And Faith never was a slayer in this way. Sure they got someone who is a slayer, but not someone who is THE slayer and by now it makes a huge difference for me, and it should for them, in seven years we have the right to excpect them to see the difference.

But, yeah, irrationnal decisions and all...It's very difficult to know if they are so OOC or not.

40.JasonAug 17, 2009 (Mon)
@buffyholic--I'm with you 100% This has always been a painful scene to watch, but I'm always so fascinated by it. I like that Willow makes the wrong call and that Xander is so overwhelmed. The entire lot is so exhausted, paranoid, distrusting, and just utterly scared that they respond to Buffy's rash and fatal mistake by matching it. It creates such a powerful scene where Anya's true feelings come out--and everyone seizes on a much needed moment of catharsis--in their rebellion. A direct response to the weight of living beneath Buffy's nearly dictatorial leadership. --Don't get me wrong, I love Buffy--she is my favorite character, but she clearly doesn't always do the right thing, but I can appreciate it when I understand WHY she is doing what she does and still love her anyway.

pssst Chosen is coming and she's about to be free!


@Ian--I totally agree with you--Your comment succinct and well thought out! Kudos!

41.wytchcroftAug 17, 2009 (Mon)
quote: Jason Aug 16 2009

42.UrsusAug 17, 2009 (Mon)
The writers were visibly trying to get us to the "mutiny" scene for half a season. Buffy's speeches annoy everyone. Everyone feels Buffy is blinded when it comes to Spike. Buffy sours her relations with a lot of people - Giles, Wood, Anya, Xander. And The First tries to sow seeds of doubt.

So I can appreciate what the writers were trying to do. The problem is they simply hadn't worked hard enough for the scene to come across as completely credible. Perhaps if The First had been better used since CWDP. Perhaps if the Slayer/Potential dynamic had been better explored. Perhaps if Buffy had made more mistakes or taken bigger risks. There just wasn't enough invested for the scene to pay off.

And the idea that Buffy's friends would immediately turn to Faith is ludicrous. If anybody should have replaced Buffy as General, it should have been Giles at watcher, or even Willow as super-witch. Either rout could have been really interesting.

43.ChristianAug 17, 2009 (Mon)
BTVS always left me guessing what would come next… but this I wouldn’t have expected ever. I’m not sure if I like it or not. I like to imagine that with so much chaos going on and the Hellmouth rising up EVERYONE got taken away by negative feelings. If it happened to all of Sunnydale, cops included, why would everyone in the Summer’s house be excluded from the effect? If this was the reason for everyone acting so out of carácter, the only flaw would be that the writers didn’t emphasize enough that this was the motive.

I really like the Willow/Xander scene at the hospital… so sad. I cried my eyes out… Allison Hannigan always has that effect on me.

I also thought that the main reason the writers had everyone choose Faith as the new leader was to close the Faith storyline. Following the events in the next episodes, Faith finally realizes what it’s like to be THE Slayer. She tells Buffy that even though she’s surrounded by people and all of them depend on her… she’s never felt so alone in her life… and that’s Buffy everyday. She no longer wishes to be like Buffy, she doesn’t see her life as something so negative anymore and she can finally close that chapter in her life and move on.

I’m also a Faith fan so it didn’t hurt to see Faith having her moment… as sad as it was for Buffy

44.GuidoAug 17, 2009 (Mon)
The shooting script posted on Buffyworld, and the episode's TV spot on YouTube both have Dawn kissing Buffy just before she kicks her out, and the script has her being much less abrupt. I'm not sure why this stuff was cut out, but it adds a little. From (http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/141_scri.html):

BUFFY
Guys. We have a chance to end this.
All of us. I can't just stay here
and watch Faith lead you off into
some disaster.

Dawn, silent till now, approaches Buffy and tenderly KISSES her on the cheek.

DAWN
Then you can't stay here.
Buffy -- and everyone -- is shocked.

DAWN (cont'd)
Look, I love you, but you can't be a
part of this. You can't be here. I
don't think... I don't think you can
face this at all. This one you have
to sit out.

Buffy is utterly devastated. The final betrayal.

DAWN (cont'd)
I'm sorry. It's my house, too.
Either you let Faith handle things...
or you have to leave.


45.SunburnAug 18, 2009 (Tue)
I keep being first convinced by Mike, then Jason, then Mike again. GAAH.

In the end, I would go with Jason and Ian's point about individuals making terrible group decisions, especially when panicking and deeply upset and shocked. On the other hand, I totally agree with Mike (although it hadn't occurred to e before) that choosing Faith as a leader was unlikely and that WIllow or Giles would have been a far more obvious choice.

Having said that, Faith is wonderful and it WAS good to see her arc close as it did.

46.wilpyAug 22, 2009 (Sat)
Having watched EP again, I think it's safe to say Drew Greenberg was the worst Buffy staff writer since the woman who penned Beer Bad and WTWTA. To me only 'Him' and maybe 'Entropy' really stand out as anything above subpar. I've noticed, besides those episodes, his dialogue is pretty uninspired as well, not many Buffyisms in his scripts. Which is a bad thing! lol

47.JasonAug 24, 2009 (Mon)
I'd like to point out that something very crucial occurred to me. I think I made it clear that, yes, I love this episode and in particular the last scene. Maybe part of that comes from enjoying seeing my favorite heroes beat around emotionally just so she realize greater truths about life and existence, and in this instance power. Earlier I said that I don't think the group chose to back Faith as they rejected Buffy's leadership. They were assuming with her gone, a more democratic process would stabilize the war they were waging. Now, Buffy is a great hero and amazing friend, but the episode is suggesting that leading and being a hero are two very different. And while Buffy is gone, Faith is elected as the leader of the girls--this whole story arc, is after all, at it's core about the Slayers, and everyone else is along for the ride, in varying degrees.

What irks me however, is people saying "Well Faith was an evil terrible person who did these things yada yada yada." But I don't buy it. In a season all about power and how people use it....it's very clear to me that Faith was at one time corrupted by her own power. Faith is/was neither good nor bad, but she has done good and bad things, as a result of trying to cope with possessing overwhelming power. She's clearly on a road to redemption. Kicking out Buffy aside, why shouldn't someone redeeming themselves be allowed to lead? Do none of you watch Angel? I think a more fatal mistake Buffy's friends and family could make is to assume that Faith is somehow inept or not deserving of leadership, in fact that flies in the face of everything Buffy herself has stood for.

I'm trying not to pontificate on these points so I'll leave it at that. People have the right to rebel against orders with which they don't agree. I love the statement being made, and I really can't agree that it's OOC--a statement I really can't get behind completely---as I know, that I do things which can be considered out of character ON A DAILY BASIS...I can only imagine how I'd react to hasty planning, dead girls, and one eye.

It's also worth pointing out that when Buffy (overwhelmed with her leadership role) rushed her girls into battle with deadly results. The next day, Faith took them out on the town to 'blow off steam' after a lot of their friends died, and they were offered the chance to get down and dirty and surmount a life-threatening situation using their wits (much like the scooby's season 1).

Also, someone mentioned "Well Hey! What happened to the core group dynamic, why didn't just get together and make things end prettier." To that, I say Buffy made it clear over and over again that everyone must fall in line. She is the leader...as in follow-the. :-) There's no core group anymore, Buffy rules. Getting kicked out turned out to be a good thing actually, as many trying events can be. It leads Buffy to a wonderful revelation: Power sucks! ...All of your mistakes are magnified, the responsibility makes you cold and hard. People are so quick to judge and assume they could do better and sadly sometimes they rebel against and vilify you. And it's a slap in the face when you've sacrificed so much and the people around you don't..no actually, *can't* understand. Just look at how we judge people who hold power. I mean, we nearly impeached a President over a sexual indiscretion! Generally, we hold people with power to higher standard than we hold for ourselves. Luckily, Buffy realizes that she's been hoarding the power, and power is dangerous...power needs to shared. This is a big, and maybe it wasn't executed as well as some of you had hoped, but I think it resonates.

48.wilpyAug 26, 2009 (Wed)
Jason, regarding your second paragraph, there's a HUGE step between being deserving of redemption and being deserving of the immense power that Faith was handed. Faith abused her physical power and used it for heinous crimes, then handed herself over to the cops because she wanted to pay. Does she deserve redemption? Of course, because she repented. Does she deserve to lead people into battle? Hell no, because she's already proven she can't handle great power. She might not use it for evil anymore, but her incapability to cope with great power is an inherent part of her character. It's for this reason the Scoobies should've been more cautious in assigning their next leader. Instead they went with her because she's a Slayer, which I find awfully hypocritical given that none of them disagreed with Anya's rant about how Slayerness should equal automatic leadership.

49.wilpyAug 26, 2009 (Wed)
*should not equal automatic leadership

50.JasonAug 29, 2009 (Sat)
Wilpy, couldn't agree with you more! The rest of the group should have realized that very thing, but they were emotionally overwhelmed and made a fatal mistake and this humanizes them (esp. Willow and Xander)..as people, thoughout history, make these sort of mistakes over and over again. In the end though, Buffy realizes that everyone should lead....Buffy ended her person journey as *part* of the group, an equal. This is in direct opposition of her aloneness throughout the series...this scene sets up that payoff. It think it works beautifully.

51.wytchcroftSep 2, 2009 (Wed)
Did my comment get removed because of the word 'reductionist'? if so i apologize, i just meant that simplifying arguments and stating flatly that was/is a single 'point' to a season denies us the chance to explore th text and themes that the show and these reviews offer.

If the tone or wording of my comment caused offense then (again) i'm sorry -
i may have come across as angry, which is never a good thing on threads like these.

I've certainly enjoyed reading this discussion!:))

52.wytchcroftSep 2, 2009 (Wed)
My typing still sucks though. Sigh.

53.mikejerSep 2, 2009 (Wed)
@wytchcroft: I haven't deleted any comments on this review. Either you submitted your comment incorrectly or there was a glitch in the comment system.

54.TranquillitySep 3, 2009 (Thu)
Agree with Guido, the shooting script is well worth reading and actually puts the eviction in quite a different light, perhaps even makes it more understandable. So i think the major problem with this episode was editing.

55.wytchcroftSep 6, 2009 (Sun)
cheers mike :)

56.JadenSep 7, 2009 (Mon)
I don't know. I agree that there could have been some better setup for the character gang up besides the vinyard but Buffy's general attitude this season (well this half of the season) has been so "do it my way" that I think her kingdom was just waiting to crumble.

Plus the suddenness and non-justification of the characters volt against Buffy is the point: they love her in Dirty Girls and hate her here; fickle much? Buffy would very easily feel the competitiveness with Faith and allow that to let her make opposing decisions for the sake of doing so and the group are so fickle it makes sense that they'd jump straight to Faith after Buffy fails.

I think the main problem with this episode is it exists merely for the purpose of showing the aftermath of their loss and then the mutiny. Not much else=yawn. The club scene actually felt like a breath of fresh air from an otherwise BORING episode.

However I do have one problem which is just the worst in a long, long time: how the hell does Dawn get off telling Buffy to leave the house which BUFFY OWNS?! I mean Buffy pays for Dawns education, food, clothes everything and then she kicks BUFFY out? Just because there are a bunch of squatters in there to back her up? That was just too stupid...

57.RosieSep 11, 2009 (Fri)
I have a problem with your review. I get the feeling that your emotions are getting in the way of understanding what really happened or the breakdown of relationships between Buffy and the others. I especially had a problem with the following:

"Although Buffy has due cause to be a little peeved at Giles' actions a couple episodes ago and to be cautious surrounding his decisions regarding Spike, her comment about Spike being the only one watching her back is truly uncalled for. I know she's tired, I know she's frustrated, but to slap all her allies in the face with a comment like that isn't fair. Note that I'm not saying she was out of character, but rather just that she behaved poorly."


You act as if you had expected Buffy to forgive Giles for his actions in "Lies My Parents Told Me". The series has gone beyond the period immediately after "Helpless". Not only did Giles betray Buffy, he has failed to show any remorse. Of course her resentment and anger toward his is going to continue.

58.mosesmanSep 14, 2009 (Mon)
You know, the way it was done was a bit out of character for Xander, Willow and especially Dawn- I think a quieter scene between the main characters would have been better than involving everyone. But I still enjoy the hell out of the mutiny scene. Buffy becomes such a selfish, cold, arrogant unlikeable character in this season, I couldn't help but enjoy the hell out of everyone finally standing up to her- particularly since again and again, while others try to compromise, Buffy continually makes it all about her and her way. What especially gets to me about her reasoning (and this is one of the reasons season 7 is less enjoyable to me than the earlier ones) is that she claims that she has led Scoobies to victory time and time again, as if in a sort of dictatorship. This is not the case in the early seasons. Buffy is the one all the characters rally around, but they are all equals; they all defeat evil together, as a team- that was the whole point of Primeval. Buffy is pretty much completely in the wrong this entire episode (and most of the season), and I feel next to no pity for her when her friends finally get tired of her treating them like crap.

59.medslaveOct 14, 2009 (Wed) @ 10:01am
I don't really understand why people hate this episode so much. I've been watching seasons 2-7 over the past month or so and I can definitely say that this is not one of the worst (see "Where the Wild Things Are" and the one with the mummy).

First, I love the story line with Faith in this episode. Faith is one of my favorite characters in the whole series and it's mainly because you never know what she's going to do. You see glimpses of the faith everyone thinks they know, when she alludes to being in jail, going out dancing and drinking, but at the same time you see a more mature version. However, the most important aspect of her character development is the reaffirmation of why faith is NOT Buffy and is in fact "the OTHER slayer". Even she knows it, and when the power is handed to her, the fact that she takes it is THE most out of character part of the whole episode. The fact that Buffy gives it to her is not.

Also, I actually loved the last scene. A lot of people say it's difficult to watch, etc, but I think that's exactly the point. Buffy's whole story makes us want her to be a hero, but there are so many aspects of the Slayer that make her very un-heroic. We find out her power itself comes from demons and that she is essentially a killer/hunter. Up until this point, Buffy has only had minor slip-ups in the barrier that exists between the demon power and the human power of the slayer. The First's real power lies not in destruction but in its ability to make the very guardians of humanity lose themselves and in turn the humanity they are guarding. That's why the First never takes a corporeal form and is so much scarier that Glory and Adam (who both beat Buffy up bad). It's eating at her from the inside and the last scene is a physical manifestation of Buffy losing faith in herself. She jumps on going to the vineyard because the just wants something to hang on to, she orders people around because she knows they are starting to doubt her which is why her commands are so empty.

Also, Willow and Xander are not necessarily out of line either. They've both been going through the motions this whole time, waiting, because there really isn't anything they can do. Also, in every other situation they've been in, Buffy has only had to lead them, not a whole group. The original scoobies grew together, matured together, became stronger, so the idea that Buffy may not be the one in charge is not something that should never show up. Furthermore, it's not totally unreasonable to say that like Buffy, Willow and Xander are as much in charge of the potentials and probably know more and understand them more.

60.wytchcroftNov 4, 2009 (Wed) @ 12:04am
OMG, I can't fucking believe it! My sisters having a baby-great news! Claps for me, share the love, we really want a boy!!! OMG!

61.WendyNov 4, 2009 (Wed) @ 12:56am
Mike, like everyone here I really like your reviews and they helped me enjoyed the show that much more. one thing I would to comment about you said about Spike being the only one always watching her back. Spike IS always watching her back even in his pre-souled days. So much so that Buffy entrusted her mum and her sister in his hands. She let Dawn goes to him even after the attempted rape incidence. That's how much trust she has in him. Although the chip still at play here but we know Spike can hit if he bears the pain.

Buffy knows that from 'Intervention' Spike would rather die than see her being sad when Giles and others were telling her to kill Dawn. I feel Spike truly deserves what she said here.

62.PersonDec 29, 2009 (Tue) @ 5:19pm
Anybody notice how scratch and hoarse Buffy and Faith's voices were?

63.Nathan.TaurusJan 7, 2010 (Thu) @ 9:49pm
The Caleb/Buffy fight was good, as was the ending scene. Agree that it seems strange that Buffy would be given the leadership role only to have it taken away the very first chance. And Rona really pissed me off with that last comment after Buffy left the house - her house. On a side note, was Rona a survivor in 'Chosen' because she was the only visible black Potential? I think it's possible as the series never had many black people shown to live in Sunnydale. Mr Trick said this in Season 3.

I agree that there was many out of character scenes and the scene with all the cars leaving gridlocked in the tiny main street was just funny. Not in a good way.

'Person': Sarah must of had a cold as she sounded the same in the first scene as she did in 'The Killer in Me'. Seems the scenes were shot around the same time.

64.wytchcroftFeb 11, 2010 (Thu) @ 5:52pm
Wow, i just popped back to this site for a re-read and there are a whole bunch of comments in my name that i didn't make.
e.g. the fake baby news thing on this review and other comments elsewhere.

Has this happened to anyone else?

I don't have time (or the heart frankly) to go checking every page but it's a shame to discover that yet another Whedonverse site seems to have gone to the trolls.

I won't comment again because how will people be sure it's me??? - but i will take one last opportunity Mike too thank you for all these reviews and the hours of reading i've enjoyed here.

65.SamFeb 11, 2010 (Thu) @ 6:26pm
Wytchcroft, you should TOTALLY keep commenting here. Once the trolls are discovered, they usually go away, so now that you've cleared up the confusion, it should not be an issue. Please stick around. :)

66.ShannonFeb 12, 2010 (Fri) @ 9:45am
That's bizarre. And yes, stick around - most of the people who comment regularly will be able to tell the difference (e.g. the buffyholic imposter) or will ask.

67.wytchcroftFeb 21, 2010 (Sun) @ 9:22am
thanks guys, will do - but cautious like. :)


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